We were once a group of visual artists who displayed and sold our works in non traditional venues, i.e. the streets and plazas of St.Augustine Florida,the oldest City in The U. S. Local laws have been passed in defiance of the First Amendment.There are no longer street artists in St. Augustine, Florida
E mail: plazanews@mail.com
Sunday, May 24, 2009
Transparent Ploy
At first glance this headline sounds great! Caution, Read the Story below
The City is not a bad guy because it doesn't want another lawsuit. The City has been successfully sued by painters, a sketch artist, a mask maker and a quilter. Each lawsuit carves out another type of vendor the City must allow. The City should let the economy decide who sells in the market and it should quit going to court.
You guys are sounding like St. George Street business owners who want all street vendors gone. You want the City to protect your business interests too.
Just set up next to the jewelery lady and the sunglass guy. Your work is outstanding and should not suffer from the competition.
You've done a fine job getting yours; why wish it upon everyone else to have to sue to get theirs.
"The City is not a bad guy because it doesn't want another lawsuit."
NO one will buy that!
Law enforcement should not be used this way. You have a Federal Judge that made a decision and a bunch of crooks messing with that decision. Maybe the Attorney General should be called in to investigate breach of trust.
Really, artists are the only experts on how to use law enforcement. Let's make 'em Chief. And please, call the Attorney General to make sure that no one buys a necklace or candle instead of a painting. Whooo whooo. Go for it.
Painters were the lion's share when I was there this weekend.
Everybody, especially the city, is sick of the city managing the plaza.
Find a fresh spokesman to engage the city folk, maybe someone less angry or someone who hasn't called city folk bloated trough hogs. Quigley cleans up nice, is intelligent and well spoken. Think he's up to it.
But if attack mode is the sole mode, by all means, don't let Ed make the call to the Attorney General.
They sure don't like it when people, not involved with the Visual Artists, stand up. They try to label them as angry... The PUBLIC ;) excluding Ed are simply saying WE WANT THE GAMES TO STOP.
You better believe I’ll tell anyone with influence over their 450 money what’s going on. They stink at protecting our National Treasure. Only a clean slate of Commissioners and upper level city staff can solve this problem. God this is sad!
The sale of visual art is commercial speech. You can't allow one type of commercial speech then forbid another.
Years ago, when the City tried to allow the four categories of visual art Judge Howard enjoined the City prohibiting in her order, Mr. Travous deliberately had himself arrested for selling pottery then challenged the ordinance.
Judge Tinlin said "all or nothing". The City chose nothing, but made an error in banning sales in HP-2 & HP-3 rather than limiting the ban to the Paza.
All Judge Howard said was that if the City wanted a completely ban, they had to limit the ban to the Plaza.
Carpetbagger Travous is the cause of all this. The artists had what they wanted years ago and Travous killed the golden goose. A complete ban is coming. Thank Travous and the law of unintended consequences.
"Find a fresh spokesman to engage the city folk." There are obviously some city associated folks on this site.
They are talking about engaging?
When people have hired an attorney the time has passed. Really the Visual Artists are out of this part. They have an attorney to speak for them. They are OK in the park. The clear issue is that the public is after the city for bringing back the flea market. We know what happened here and this is a much broader problem. The city has been looking the other way for certain groups all along.
In my opinion the city folk can't be trusted! Because of that, the time for talk with the city is over and future talks will be on much higher levels.
To simplify it: Gross mismanagement of public resources contributed to by figure head commissioners and city’s legal staff.
Years ago Greg Travous didn't like having to pay for a permit. So at Greg Travous's request, the City gave a free pass to the four "artists" categories: painters, photographers, printers, sculptors. No permits necessary for those four categories; every other vendor had to pay.
Greg didn't like having to share the plaza with "non artists" who actually paid for permits. On its own, the City gave the entire plaza free to painters, photographers, printers and sculptors. No other vendors were allowed in the plaza.
Greg didn't like other artists being excluded from the free market. So Greg Travous encouraged a mask maker and quilt maker to set up stands and vend next to him. When the police asked the mask maker and quilt maker to leave they were going to leave. But, Greg told them to challenge the law. When the mask maker and quilt maker only received tickets, Greg grabbed two of the quilter's quilts and offered them for sale. He insisted on being arrested for this.
Tom Cushman represented all three (the mask maker, quilt maker and Greg-the quilt salesman) in court before Judge Tinlin and got the ordinance declared facially constitutional, but unconstitutional as applied.
Why you ask? Because the terms "paintings, photographs, prints, and (particularly) sculpture" were too vague, other vendors were being discriminated against and the City was improperly using its discretion in approving vendor categories. Judge Tinlin's order did say all or nothing.
So the City banned all vendors except during special events. During special events, any vendor could vend for a $10 permit.
Note also, the City offered to meet with Greg and Cushman several times to engage in discussions and well before the federal lawsuit. But Greg doesn't want to meet with the City. The only interaction Greg wants with the City is to be arrested and then go to court with the City.
Greg did bring this on himself. He's come full circle and then some. He didn't like paying for a permit, sharing the plaza with "non artists," being given the free plaza for only those four categories, and being limited to special events like everybody else.
Greg is angry. He did call the city folks bloated trough hogs. This is Greg's blog and Greg runs it.
THIS IS OPINION: This blog, Karl and Greg's insatiable frustation with the City regarding the plaza are what he has and what keeps him going.
You seem to know alot about the city's motives. You also claim to know alot about what has transpired between Greg and the city. I will assume you are with the city and that explains your sour grapes.
Of course I brought this on myself.I saw that you in city administration were blatantly violating artist's rights and took action as I have in other places.
And yes there is some resentment and anger at being handcuffed and jailed a number of times for doing what is my constitutional right as once again affirmed by the courts.
No,I have never been offered a meeting with anyone in the city and my requests for a meeting were ignored.I have read about what you in the city call "workshops" that were nothing more than you telling citizens how it's going to be.
Insatiable frustration......I like that....frustration that will not be sated.
I'll repeat our attorney Tom Cushman's line.....Just honor the Constitution.
At first glance this headline sounds great! Caution, Read the Story below
The City is not a bad guy because it doesn't want another lawsuit. The City has been successfully sued by painters, a sketch artist, a mask maker and a quilter. Each lawsuit carves out another type of vendor the City must allow. The City should let the economy decide who sells in the market and it should quit going to court.
ReplyDeleteYou guys are sounding like St. George Street business owners who want all street vendors gone. You want the City to protect your business interests too.
Just set up next to the jewelery lady and the sunglass guy. Your work is outstanding and should not suffer from the competition.
You've done a fine job getting yours; why wish it upon everyone else to have to sue to get theirs.
"The City is not a bad guy because it doesn't want another lawsuit."
ReplyDeleteNO one will buy that!
Law enforcement should not be used this way. You have a Federal Judge that made a decision and a bunch of crooks messing with that decision. Maybe the Attorney General should be called in to investigate breach of trust.
Really, artists are the only experts on how to use law enforcement. Let's make 'em Chief. And please, call the Attorney General to make sure that no one buys a necklace or candle instead of a painting. Whooo whooo. Go for it.
ReplyDeletePainters were the lion's share when I was there this weekend.
Yawn.
That wasn't an artist who complained about the misuse of resources. What part of the order did you not understand?
ReplyDeleteVisual Artists?
Plaza?
I don't think they understand that the public is totally sick of City Management.
"Call the Attorney General"
Don’t be too sure city slickers; one phone call can open Pandora’s Box.
Everybody, especially the city, is sick of the city managing the plaza.
ReplyDeleteFind a fresh spokesman to engage the city folk, maybe someone less angry or someone who hasn't called city folk bloated trough hogs. Quigley cleans up nice, is intelligent and well spoken. Think he's up to it.
But if attack mode is the sole mode, by all means, don't let Ed make the call to the Attorney General.
Each of our artists are their own spokespersons. Anyone who supports our free speech issue is not neccessarily our "spokesperson".
ReplyDeleteThey sure don't like it when people, not involved with the Visual Artists, stand up. They try to label them as angry... The PUBLIC ;) excluding Ed are simply saying WE WANT THE GAMES TO STOP.
ReplyDeleteYou better believe I’ll tell anyone with influence over their 450 money what’s going on. They stink at protecting our National Treasure. Only a clean slate of Commissioners and upper level city staff can solve this problem. God this is sad!
This blog makes me wonder who has the "ploy."
ReplyDeleteThe sale of visual art is commercial speech. You can't allow one type of commercial speech then forbid another.
ReplyDeleteYears ago, when the City tried to allow the four categories of visual art Judge Howard enjoined the City prohibiting in her order, Mr. Travous deliberately had himself arrested for selling pottery then challenged the ordinance.
Judge Tinlin said "all or nothing". The City chose nothing, but made an error in banning sales in HP-2 & HP-3 rather than limiting the ban to the Paza.
All Judge Howard said was that if the City wanted a completely ban, they had to limit the ban to the Plaza.
Carpetbagger Travous is the cause of all this. The artists had what they wanted years ago and Travous killed the golden goose. A complete ban is coming. Thank Travous and the law of unintended consequences.
Tinlin did not say all or nothing.
ReplyDeleteYou seem to be alone in your opions, so please speak only for yourself.
You are mixing up the timeline as well as he judges. This previous post is a jumble of misinformation.
ReplyDeleteCarpetbagger? Why you skalawag! Pistols at dawn! Abolition forever!
"Find a fresh spokesman to engage the city folk."
ReplyDeleteThere are obviously some city associated folks on this site.
They are talking about engaging?
When people have hired an attorney the time has passed. Really the Visual Artists are out of this part. They have an attorney to speak for them. They are OK in the park. The clear issue is that the public is after the city for bringing back the flea market. We know what happened here and this is a much broader problem. The city has been looking the other way for certain groups all along.
In my opinion the city folk can't be trusted! Because of that, the time for talk with the city is over and future talks will be on much higher levels.
To simplify it: Gross mismanagement of public resources contributed to by figure head commissioners and city’s legal staff.
THESE ARE FACTS:
ReplyDeleteYears ago Greg Travous didn't like having to pay for a permit. So at Greg Travous's request, the City gave a free pass to the four "artists" categories: painters, photographers, printers, sculptors. No permits necessary for those four categories; every other vendor had to pay.
Greg didn't like having to share the plaza with "non artists" who actually paid for permits. On its own, the City gave the entire plaza free to painters, photographers, printers and sculptors. No other vendors were allowed in the plaza.
Greg didn't like other artists being excluded from the free market. So Greg Travous encouraged a mask maker and quilt maker to set up stands and vend next to him. When the police asked the mask maker and quilt maker to leave they were going to leave. But, Greg told them to challenge the law. When the mask maker and quilt maker only received tickets, Greg grabbed two of the quilter's quilts and offered them for sale. He insisted on being arrested for this.
Tom Cushman represented all three (the mask maker, quilt maker and Greg-the quilt salesman) in court before Judge Tinlin and got the ordinance declared facially constitutional, but unconstitutional as applied.
Why you ask? Because the terms "paintings, photographs, prints, and (particularly) sculpture" were too vague, other vendors were being discriminated against and the City was improperly using its discretion in approving vendor categories. Judge Tinlin's order did say all or nothing.
So the City banned all vendors except during special events. During special events, any vendor could vend for a $10 permit.
Note also, the City offered to meet with Greg and Cushman several times to engage in discussions and well before the federal lawsuit. But Greg doesn't want to meet with the City. The only interaction Greg wants with the City is to be arrested and then go to court with the City.
Greg did bring this on himself. He's come full circle and then some. He didn't like paying for a permit, sharing the plaza with "non artists," being given the free plaza for only those four categories, and being limited to special events like everybody else.
Greg is angry. He did call the city folks bloated trough hogs. This is Greg's blog and Greg runs it.
THIS IS OPINION:
This blog, Karl and Greg's insatiable frustation with the City regarding the plaza are what he has and what keeps him going.
Frustration may be his muse.
You seem to know alot about the city's motives. You also claim to know alot about what has transpired between Greg and the city. I will assume you are with the city and that explains your sour grapes.
ReplyDeleteOf course I brought this on myself.I saw that you in city administration were blatantly violating artist's rights and took action as I have in other places.
ReplyDeleteAnd yes there is some resentment and anger at being handcuffed and jailed a number of times for doing what is my constitutional right as once again affirmed by the courts.
No,I have never been offered a meeting with anyone in the city and my requests for a meeting were ignored.I have read about what you in the city call "workshops" that were nothing more than you telling citizens how it's going to be.
Insatiable frustration......I like that....frustration that will not be sated.
I'll repeat our attorney Tom Cushman's line.....Just honor the Constitution.
Go ahead Big Bad Government :) blame one small man for all your mistakes.
ReplyDeleteI'm not Greg or a vender in the park.
ReplyDeleteThis is the core of the problem:
QUOTE:
"So the City banned ALL vendors except during special events. During special events, ANY vendor could vend for a $10 permit."
>Your ALL and ANY is the problem. It's very simple. The city is at fault. Thanks for clearing that up.
Well, odd and notorious behavior has always gone well for the value of an artists work.
ReplyDeleteHell, didn't one of them even whack off his own ear? Didn't hurt his sales much!
I guess what they say about publicity is true - As long as they spell your name right... !
Above:
ReplyDelete"Hell, didn't one of them even whack off his own ear? Didn't hurt his sales much!"
>Then the City of St. Augustine should be internationally known because they cut off their nose despite their face. ;)
"they cut off their nose despite their face"
ReplyDeleteNow that's good.This reminds me as to when vice president Quayle said:
"Republicans understand the importance of bondage between a mother and child."
uh yeah, I believe the correct quote is, 'Cut off his nose to SPITE his face.'
ReplyDeleteYou know, psychopaths often misuse words and phrases as a pattern, often to comical results.
NO nut case I meant despite. We know who the psychopaths are in town are you are truly one of them.
ReplyDeleteGo edit Old City Life it needs help.
karl said...
ReplyDelete"they cut off their nose despite their face"
Now that's good.This reminds me as to when vice president Quayle said:
"Republicans understand the importance of bondage between a mother and child."
28 May, 2009
I dont think Karl can hold a red pen.